Scientific discovery of Spiritual Laws given in Rational Scientific Revelations

The Second Education

By the Reverend Theodore Pitcairn.

We read in the ARCANA COELESTIA, n. 8552, that unless in respect to his spiritual life a man is conceived anew, born anew, and educated anew, that is created anew, from the Lord, he is damned.

The first education is for the sake of the second education, and in so far as it prepares for this it is good and true, and in so far as it does not prepare for the second education it is evil and false. Wherefore without a knowledge of the second education no true doctrine of education is possible, and as this knowledge is at present lacking or is very slight, we can at this time only deal in we have certain glimpses, that may be compared to a flash of lightning in contrast to the steady light of the noon-day sun.

If the church had perception in spiritual things it would have no need of elaborate theories of education, for it would clearly see the nature of the second education, and from this have the necessary knowledge as to the first or preliminary education. This is involved in the statement in the MEMORABILIA, n. 4059: "If man were in the love of true faith he would have no need to write so many books about the education of infants and children".

The first education is an education in the things of the world, and especially an education in the things of the letter of the Word including the letter of the Writings. All things that are acquired during this education must as it were die, in order that man may be educated anew, for they are such things as appertain to his natural memory, and are therefore quiescent in Heaven. They are like a fruit which must decay in order that the seed may take root and live, or like the shell of a nut which must break in order that the kernel may live and grow. The words "Unless a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die it abideth alone; but if it die it bringeth forth much fruit" have a universal application.

There is great danger that the first education may, as it were, be too effective, so that it with difficulty dies; it may become like a shell that is so hard that the kernel cannot burst its bonds and come forth. We have said that a man can take nothing that lie acquires by the first education into Heaven; by Heaven is meant all things which appertain to the spiritual and celestial mind, whether a man is living in this world or the next. It is of great importance to realize that the letter of the Writings belongs to the first education, which must, as it were, be left behind when one enters upon the second education; if one confuses the letter of the Writings with the spiritual and celestial things that are acquired by the second education, no genuine doctrine of education is possible.

That the letter of the Writings belongs to the first education is obvious from the fact that this can be taught to any one and learned like any other subject; while the second education is part of the new creation by the Lord, and is only possible with those who have first been conceived and born anew by the Lord.

The word education has the root meaning of leading out. The first education is a leading of the mind out of merely corporeal and sensual things into natural things. The second education is a leading out of the mind from natural things into spiritual and celestial things. The first education is apparently done by man, the second education is manifestly done by the Lord. The first education is also performed by the Lord, but of this man is unconscious. While in the case of the second education it is perceived that it is the work of the Lord.

The second education is an education in the genuine spiritual and celestial things of the internal sense of the Word, and this is performed by the Lord by means of the genuine Doctrine of the Church drawn from the Word.

In, the following we will treat of certain general aspects of education in relation to science, language and art.


Much is said in the Writings concerning science, scientifics, and scientific truth. Scientific truth is the second degree of truth, it is a discrete degree above sensual truth, and it is below the higher forms of truth.

There are two kinds of scientifics, the scientifics of the letter of the Word including the Writings, and the scientific of the world. Scientifics when used in the Writings, usually refer to the scientific of the Word, or as they are called the scientifics of the Church. The scientifics of the world are only useful as a scaffolding while the mind is being built up; as they are beyond the borders of the Church they have no permanent place in the human mind.

Nevertheless the scientifics of the world correspond to the scientifics of the Church, as is evident from much that is said in the Writings concerning them, especially in connection with the science of anatomy. The scientifics of the world are mentioned in the letter of the Writings only for the sake of the representation of interior things and have no part in the internal natural sense of the Writings. To illustrate: when the Writings speak of optics and mathematics as being useful sciences, the Angels of the natural 14eaven can only think of the optics of the spiritual world, that is, the laws governing spiritual light and the spiritual eye, that is, the laws of truth, and how truth is accommodated to the understanding, by reflection and refraction. Likewise when mathematics are mentioned they can have no idea of number such as have the mathematicians of the world, but of the things that correspond thereto.

The useful spiritual scientifics of the Church are the spiritual science of astronomy, geometry, optics, chemistry, mechanics, history, anatomy, medicine, civil law, and such things also as are called philosophical (MEMORABILIA, CODEX MINOR, 4657), and above all the science of correspondences, the science of sciences.

If we consider these sciences correspondentially, it is clear that this is a description of the Writings in their letter: astronomy is the science of cognitions, geometry the science of degrees, optics the science of the influx of truth, chemistry the science of means, history, the science of progression of state, medicine the science of repentance and reformation, civil law the science of the government of truth, and philosophy the science of cause and effect.

These scientifics of the Church, like the scientifics of the world, belong to the first education, for they are subjects which can be taught to any one.

Scientifics, we are taught, are vessels which must be infilled with spiritual and celestial things if they are to have life. It is this infilling of scientifics that is meant by the second education. This infilling of scientifics takes place by influx both immediate and mediate. At first on] immediately from the Lord into the letter giving a general perception, afterwards both immediately from the Lord and mediately through the Heavens. During the first period man does not truly take part in the second education, for he remains in the letter. It is only with the commencement of mediate influx that an is lead by the Lord out of the letter. This twofold influx is treated of in the eighteenth and nineteenth chapters of EXODUS. Here it may be noted that exodus, going out, and education, leading out, are almost identical in meaning. In fact the book of EXODUS is nothing else than a description of the second education, by which man is led out of the letter into the spirit, and with the New Churchman. specifically, a leading out of the letter of the Writings into their spiritual and celestial senses. This leading out is done by the Lord alone as described under the representation of Moses. And it is involved in the words of the ARCANA COELESTIA, 8552; "Unless in respect to his spiritual life a man is conceived anew, born anew, and educated anew, that is created anew, from the Lord, he is damned".

The same teaching is involved in the words of Jethro to Moses: "The word that thou doest is not good", this signifies that a change must take place; "wearing thou wiIt wear away, both thou, and this people that is with Thee", this signifies that thus the truth which has been inseminated would perish (A. C. 8696).

Jethro had seen Moses judging the people alone, and saw that this could not continue. The people are the scientifics of the letter of the Writings or those who are in such scientifics; Moses represents the immediate influx from the Lord into these scientifics. At the commencement of the Church, and at the, beginning of regeneration, this is the only influx from which the scientifics of the Word have life. But this state cannot endure or all truth in time would perish. This first state is a state of good from truth, or a state of mere obedience to truth, afterwards the Church must come into a state in which it is in good, and from this sees truth. Then truths are said to be implanted in good. With this change mediate influx through the Heavens commences, by which the interior degrees of the mind of the Church are built up. And it is this building up of the mind that is meant by the second education or education anew.

Previously the Lord did inflow with good into the truths of the letter, for without good, truth is but a dead shell, but this influx was immediate and not perceptible. In the second state when a man is in truth from good, there is a twofold influx, both immediate from the Lord, and mediate by means of the Heavens; this influx is perceptible, and is called revelation.

Thus we read in the ARCANA COELESTIA, n. 8694: "By revelation is meant enlightenment when the Word is read, and then perception; for they who are in good and long for truth are taught in this way from the Word; but they who are not in good cannot be taught from the Word, but can only be confirmed in such things as they have been instructed in from infancy, whether true or false. The reason why those who are in good have revelation, and those who are in evil have no revelation, is that in the internal sense each and all things in the Word treat of the Lord and of His kingdom, and the Angels that are with man perceive the Word according to its internal sense. This is communicated to the man who is in good and reads the Word, and from affection longs for truth, and consequently has enlightenment and perception. For with those who are in good and from this in the affection of truth, the intellectual part of the mind is opened into Heaven, and their soul, that is their internal man, is in fellowship with the Angels; but it is otherwise with those who are not in good. But what is the nature of the revelation of those who are in good and from this in the affection of truth cannot be described. It is not manifest, neither is it altogether hidden; but it is a certain consent and favoring from within that a thing is true, and a non-favoring if it is not true. . . . The cause of its being so is from the influx of Heaven from the Lord; for through Heaven from the Lord there is light, that surrounds and enlightens the intellect, which is the eye of the internal sight. The things which are then seen in that light are truths, for this very light is the Divine Truth which proceeds from the Lord.  That this Divine Truth is light in Heaven has been frequently shown".

This passage shows that the scientifics in the Writings are not the source of light to the mind, but are the objects which must be seen in light. The light itself is from the Lord by means of the internal sense of the Writings which is with the Angels and which may be communicated to a man who is in fellowship with them, when reading the Writings. The spiritual and celestial sense, as it in itself, cannot be expressed in natural language, and there ore is called ineffable, nevertheless it may descend into corresponding natural language, in which case the genuine Doctrine of the Church is born. The genuine Doctrine of the Church is therefore the result of the education anew by the Lord. The genuine Doctrine of the Church is in itself spiritual and celestial and therefore can only be seen when in a state of enlightenment. If one reads the letter of the Doctrine of the Church when not in a state of enlightenment one acquires mere scientifics, as is the case when one reads the letter of the Three Testaments.

From what has been said it may be seen that there can be no knowledge of the second education without mediate and immediate revelation from the Lord, and where there is no knowledge of the second education there can be no genuine Doctrine as to the first education.

The second education is described in the APOCALYPSE EXPLAINED as follows: "By prophets here and elsewhere in the Word are meant in the nearest sense such prophets as those were in the Old Testament through whom the Lord spoke; but in the spiritual sense those prophets are not meant, but all whom the Lord leads; with these also the Lord flows in and reveals to them the secrets of the Word, whether they teach or not. . . . Prophets mean all whom the Lord teaches, thus all who are in the spiritual affection of truth, that is who love truth because it is truth; for the Lord teaches these, and flows into their understanding and enlightens; and this is more true of these than of the prophets of the Old Testament. From this it can be seen that prophets mean in the spiritual sense all who are wise from the Lord; and this whether they teach or do not teach. And as every truly spiritual sense is abstracted from the idea of persons, places and times, so the prophets also signify in the highest sense the Lord in relation to the Word, and a- to Doctrine from the Word; and likewise the Word and Doctrine. A prophet means Divine Truth, which is the Word, and which is in the Church out of the Word" (n. 624).

Hence it may be seen -that the Word, and to the New Churchman especially the Latin Word, Must be as a vessel in his mind, and that the second education consists of an immediate and mediate revelation from the Lord into this Divinely formed receptacle.

Before passing on let us consider briefly the place of what is called Swedenborg's scientific works. From what has been said it can be seen that it is only in so far as these works are seen as spiritual scientifics that they have a rightful place within the borders of the Church, that is in so far as the corresponding spiritual scientifics are seen within the apparent worldly scientifics of their letter. In Providence the scientific works were not written to give, man a literal or factual account of the physical world; but to act as an ultimate basis for the giving of the Writings. The scientific works were given because they . contain natural scientifics which correspond to spiritual scientifics. In the future no one will think of even discussing the point as to whether the scientific works agree with the facts of worldly science; for to do so brings the mind down to the sensual corporeal plane; just as now a New Church minister does not discuss whether the account of creation given in Genesis agrees with the actual mode of the creation of the World, for to do so brings him into the sphere of the perverted Christian church.

If viewed from within the Writings and philosophic works will indeed be seen to be in agreement with the true scientifics of the world. but not if viewed from without, or from the scientific. This may be illustrated by works of art: Those who regard the works of art of Egypt, of Greece, of the Middle Ages, and other works of art, merely from the science of anatomy, cannot see the agreement between the work of art and human anatomy. But those who view art from within, that is those who see art from the genuine love of art, see the harmony and agreement between the things of art and of nature; this is so because the agreement is internal, and the internal can never be seen in the light of the external, but the external always in the light of the internal.


The subject of language in a sense runs parallel to that of science; there are the languages of the world and the languages of the Word, the three sacred Ianguages. Neither the one nor the other can enter into Heaven nor have they any part in the internal sense, and therefore languages as such belong solely to the first education. The spiritual language, which one comes into without instruction when raised to the spiritual degree of the mind, is the medium of the second education; while living on earth this language descends into the natural mind and clothes itself with corresponding words of natural language for the sake of communication.

Concerning the spiritual language we read in HEAVEN AND HELL, n. 236: "All in the universal Heaven have one language. . . . This language is not learned there, but is implanted in everyone, for it flows from their very affection and thought". A tongue or language represents Doctrine or the truth of Doctrine; the above passage therefore signifies that spiritual Doctrine cannot be learned like natural doctrine, but flows out of the very affections and thoughts, and indeed from the Lord.

This was represented by the tongues of flame descending upon the Apostles on the day of Pentecost. The tongues of flame represented Doctrine from love. These tongues caused the Apostles to speak in tongues, that is caused each one to hear the Apostles in their own language. The descent of the tongues was the descent of pure love, but those tongues of flame when received take on external doctrinal form according to the nature of the mind of the one who receives, thus each one heard according to his own tongue.

We read in GENESIS 11 : 1: "The earth was one lip", that is flier was but one Doctrine, the lip of the Angels; yet the Ancient Church differed greatly as to doctrinals. But as all these doctrinals were from the universal Doctrine they were united by charity. Charity was the life or internal of their doctrinals, wherefore they were- in true doctrinals, although in diverse ones. When charity no longer was the life of doctrinals the doctrinals were separated from the Doctrine, and when so separated they had no longer a uniting medium, which is represented by Jehovah confounding the lip. What is said in the ARCANA COELESTIA in this connection about charity does not mean that charity can unite false and true doctrinals, but that if the doctrinals are from genuine charity then they are in harmony, because from the universal Doctrine, and this no matter bow they may differ as to doctrinals.

When an Angel speaks to a man he speaks to him in his own language. An Angel represents the good and truth of the internal mind; to speak represents influx of the Doctrine out of Heaven; the man who hears represents the external mind; the language of the man represents the doctrinal things that a man has acquired out of the Word. When influx takes place it is according to the reception by vessels.

We read in the ARCANA COELESTIA, n. 7236: "From only twenty three letters, put together in different ways, there can arise the words of all languages, and even with a perpetual variety if there were thousands of languages". The twenty-three letters signify the letter of the Word, the languages signify the Doctrine that is drawn out of the letter of the Word. From the letters by arrangement words are formed, from these sentences and from these chapters. It is only in the chapter that the full use of the letters becomes evident, and, in fact, in the meaning of the chapter; when one has learned to read fluently one becomes unconscious of the letters. The same is true of the letter of the Word including the letter of the Writings. From these words are formed, the internal natural sense, from these sentences, the spiritual sense, and from these chapters, the celestial sense. So far the Church has been occupied largely with acquiring- the alphabet. Note that the language is finite and limited, while the alphabet is unlimited and a-, it were infinite.

But let us not forget that the spiritual language which belongs to the second education is not learned, but comes to a man from influx as he is raised into a spiritual state.


The same universal laws that rule in science and language rule in art. All genuine art is a representation of celestial and spiritual things, it is not only a representation but also corresponds. Thus all genuine art contains within it what is spiritual and celestial, and within this what is Divine. All internal art like all genuine Doctrine is due to immediate and mediate influx from the Lord. Nevertheless art is natural, spiritual, or celestial, according to the nature of the reception.

Spiritual natural art is characterized by the fact that the artist is unaware of the influx, while with the interior degrees the influx is perceptible. This is involved in the following quotation from the ARCANA COELESTIA, n. 552: "that all the joy and happiness in Heaven are from the Lord alone has been shown me by many experiences, of which the following may be related. I saw that with the utmost diligence some angelic spirits were fashioning a lampstand with its lamps and flowers of the richest ornamentation in honor of the Lord. For an hour or two I was permitted to witness with what great pains they labored to make everything about it beautiful and representative, they supposing that they were doing it of themselves. But to me it was given to perceive that of themselves they could devise nothing at all. At last after some hours they said that they had formed a very beautiful representative candelabrum in honor of the Lord, whereat they rejoiced from their hearts. But I told them that of themselves they had devised and formed nothing at all, but the Lord alone for them. At first they would scarcely believe this, but being angelic spirits they were enlightened, and confessed that I was so. So it is with all other representative things, and with everything of affection and thought both in general and in particular, and also with heavenly joys and felicities, the very smallest bits of them is from the Lord alone". Here we may note that the candlestick which the angelic spirits, that is the Angels of the Lowest Heaven, formed, was Doctrine, without which they could not have read the Word. The genuine Doctrine that The Church has drawn from the Writings so far is included in what is here said concerning this candlestick. For the Church has thought it has fashioned it in honor of the Lord, when in truth the Church has devised and fashioned no genuine Doctrine, but, the Lord alone for it.

Art is based on a perception of nature as a representation of the Divine Human; in the lowest degree of genuine art this perception, as such, is not consciously realized by the artist.

While genuine art contains within it spiritual and celestial things, as it is first seen it is merely sensual, and unless there is influx from Heaven raising the mind above what is sensual, art remains so to the beholder; just as in the case of the Doctrine of the Church, if the mind is not raised into spiritual light it is seen only as natural. As one in enlightenment draws Doctrine from the infinite source of the letter of the Word, so the genuine artist draws from the indefinite source of nature the spiritual and celestial things that lie within. But if the beholder is not in enlightenment he cannot see the spiritual and celestial things that have been drawn out and let down again into the natural, but he only sees the sensual appearances. In other words if the beholder does not come into something of the same inspiration as the artist, he cannot see art. This is involved in the following quotation, ARCANA COELESTIA, n. 1954: "The eye does not see from itself, but from interior sight; interior sight, does not see from itself, but from a still more interior sight, or that of man's rational. Nay, neither does this see from itself, but does so from a still more internal sight, which is that of the internal man. And even this does not see from itself, for it is the Lord who sees through the internal man, and He is the only one who sees, because He is the only one who lives, and He it is who gives man the ability to see, and this in such a manner that it appears as 'If lie saw of himself".

As this law has a universal application, it applies to art as well as to other things, whence it can be seen that there is no genuine sight of art except from the Lord, and their this sight becomes more and more interior according to the opening of the degrees of the mind. Hence it is evident why there is no real seeing of art in the world as it is today; nothing is seen, but the sensual appearance. As the genuine seeing of art belongs to the second education, it cannot be taught, but is due to mediate and immediate influx from the Lord. Man in art as in Doctrine can only act as midwife.

Education of Children in Heaven.

The second or new education is described in the Writings under the representation of the education of children in Heaven. Heaven is the internal mind, into which a man enters by the second birth. After this entrance a man must be educated anew, for at first he is bit a child in the things of the spiritual world.

Here we will consider but a few of' the thin-s which are said in the Writings concerning the education of' children in Heaven, in order that we ma see bow they apply to the education anew.

In the MIEMORABILIA, n. 5660 and following numbers, we read: "How 'maidens are educated in the other life and in Heaven". "Maidens" are the affections of truth, "in Heaven" represents in the internal or spiritual mind "They are always kept at their own work which is embroidery, and the things which they make are either for themselves, or they give them to others. . . . They receive their garments gratis, not knowing bow, which they put on daily, and a better one, for festivals". "The garments which they receive gratis" represent the truths or things of genuine Doctrine which the internal mind receives by influx from the Lord without any effort on the part of man.

These garments are woven by the Lord from within, or as said of the work of the weaver that it is spiritual out of the celestial. "The festival days on which they receive better garments" are such states -is are represented by the Sabbath days and the days of feasts. Such days represent especially the conjunction of good and truth, in such states more interior truths are received. "The embroidery which is their work" represents the collection and arrangement of spiritual scientifics. Concerning embroidery, we read as follows in the ARCANA COELESTIA: "The work of the embroiderer signifies the things which ,ire scientific. The cause of this is from the representatives in the other life. There appear their garments embroidered in various ways, by which are signified scientific truths. Scientific truths differ from intellectual truths as external things from internal ones, or as the natural from the spiritual; for the intellectual is the visual of the internal man, and scientifics are its objects in the external man" (n. 9688). "The work of the embroiderer signifies the cognitions of good and truth. The work of the embroiderer signifies that which is from the scientific. The reason it is said by means of the cognitions of good and truth, is that by these are meant interior scientifics, such as are those of the Church concerning faith and love" (n. 9945).

The work of the maidens in Heaven, that is, the work of the affection of truth in the internal mind, is to collect and arrange interior scientifics, that is the cognitions of good and truth, as if of themselves. It is obvious that these scientifics which are called the cognitions of good and truth are by the New Churchman gathered especially from the Writings. Yet this embroidery work belongs to the external mind; man is given to do this work as if from himself in order that he may perform uses, although reality this also is done by the Lord. As to truths themselves here represented by the garments, these are given to the man gratis by the Lord, man "not knowing how".

"When they see spots on their garments, it is a sign that they have thought what is evil and that they have done what is wrong". In relation to the Church this signifies that when something of the love of self or the world enters in, blemishes begin to appear in the Doctrine of the Church and this is a sign for the need of repentance.

We read in the MEMORABILIA, n. 5668: "On the education of little children in Heaven:

  1. They are with their nurses whom they call their mothers"; a nurse represents innocence, or the "spiritual celestial"; innocence guards, protects, and feeds the spiritual affection of truth, for unless this ears for it as a mother, the affection of truth perishes.
  2. "They read the Lord's prayer, and learn prayers from nurses by influx out of Heaven". The, Lord's prayer represents the Word, especially the Word as to worship. Prayers we are told represent revelation, for in genuine prayer there is a revelation from the Lord which is an answer to the prayer; it is here clearly stated that the prayers are by means of influx out of Heaven.
  3. "There are preachers for them". Preachers preach the Doctrine of good and truth, wherefore abstractly from person the preacher signifies such Doctrine. It is the Doctrine of genuine good and truth which instructs the newborn internal affection of truth.
  4. "Intelligence flows in and also wisdom, which surpasses the intelligence of the learned in the world, although they have an infantile idea of these things". The learned of the world represent the scientifics of the Word, and those who are in such scientifics. After the second birth intelligence and wisdom flow in from the internal sense of the Word; this intelligence surpasses the intelligence that has been acquired merely from the letter, although as yet, the man, being but a spiritual infant, has only an infantile idea of these things.
  5. "They have representations from Heaven". The representations signify doctrinals, especially doctrinals as to their letter, for it is these that represent interior things.
  6. "They are dressed according to their diligence, especially with flowers and garlands". As has been shown above their diligence refers to the acquiring of scientifics; they who do this in humility and innocence are gifted with garments. The flowers and garlands represent the things of intelligence, with which they are endowed.
  7. "They are led into paradises". Paradise represents the things of wisdom.
  8. "They are tempted". During the first education man only undergoes natural temptations, that is temptations as to the good and truth of the letter of the Word. During the second education, that is, the education as to the things of the internal sense of the Word, man undergoes spiritual temptations, which are here represented by temptation of children in Heaven.
  9. "They grow according to their state of reception". Man's internal mind like his external mind is a vessel, and the growth of this mind is according to its opening to the reception of both immediate and mediate influx from the Lord.
  10. "They are of diverse genius". The things of the internal mind, like those of the external mind, are of diverse genius; it is the Divine of the Lord which makes each society of Heaven, it is the Divine of the Lord which makes the spiritual sense of the Word with every man whose mind is opened, yet the reception of the Divine of the Lord is different, with every one and is indeed according to the genius of each individual.
  11. "Nurses are given them who in the world have loved little children". As we have already spoken of nurses we, will omit further elucidation.
  12. "They who are educated is little children know no otherwise than that they were born in Heaven". All birth takes place in the natural, wherefore the word natural is derived from the word meaning birth. The birth of the .spiritual mind originally takes place in The things of the letter of the Word and Doctrine. Yet when it is perceived that all the things of the spiritual mind are due to influx from the Lord immediately and through the Heavens, it it' they were born in the spiritual mind instead of, as is really the case, that they were raised by the Lord out of the things of the letter of the Word in the natural mind.
  13. "They do not know what time and space and such earthly things are". The things of time and space as related to the Church, signify the things of the letter of the Word; such things cannot enter into Heaven, nor can they enter into the things of the interior mind, so much is this the ease that if man is in interior thought the things of the letter it were disappear to such an extent that he does not know what such things are.
  14. "They speak the angelic language within a month". When man's spiritual mind is first opened by means of the second birth, he cannot speak the spiritual language, that is he cannot talk from genuine Doctrine, but is as it were dumb. But this period is of short duration; it only applies to his first state as to faith. After a month he can speak the angelic Ianguage, and this, as was shown above, without instruction.

The above are but a few preliminary thoughts with regard to the second education; until we know more of this education, as we have said, we can have scarcely any idea of the genuine nature of the first education.

Before closing we wish to note that no man merits the second education; introduction into the things of the internal mind, that is introduction into the things of the spiritual sense of the Word, is due to the merit of the Lord and not due to any merit on man's part. No one merits Heaven; if any one imagines that he can enter the things of the spiritual sense of the Word either by study or by doing good works and not by means of the Lord, he is among those in the other life who cut grass or chop wood to keep warm, under which is, as it were, something of the Lord. Such do not enter into the sheep-fold by the door, but like robbers climb up some other way.


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